Right now, the world needs great men who
will stand up and lead with honor, serve

with purpose, and courageously fulfill
their God given roles and responsibilities

as husbands, fathers, leaders, and men.

It's time we see more men thrive,
marriages filled with passion,

and families that flourish.

So whether you're a man struggling
to figure it all out, or an awesome

husband and dad looking for the next
level, you've come to the right place.

We're your hosts, Franklin Swann and
Tanner Hays, bringing you practical,

applicable tools and strategies you
can use every day to build yourself

into the man God is calling you to be.

This is the world needs men.

Let's go.

I am your host today, Franklin Swan.

And I have the pleasure and
honor of in, uh, introducing

my guest today, Dan Stratford.

He is the author of the
Men's Code of Honor.

He is also CEO of a family
business, Action Duct Cleaning.

And we are going to have a fantastic
conversation today just about honor

codes and men stepping into the
roles and responsibilities that

God's placed in their lives so
they can serve their community.

Families, their communities, their
businesses better, and I'm just

really excited and privileged
to have you on the show today.

Thank you so much.

It's my pleasure to be here.

Well, Dan,

why don't we start off, just go a little
bit into yourself and kind of who you

are and a little bit about your life,
family, business, and just kind of who you

are.

Well, like everyone,
I've lived a unique life.

I grew up in the city of St.

Louis.

I was born there.

And my early on in life, my
dad had a, what they called

back then a nervous breakdown.

And so that was when I was about
four years old, and so he ended

up going into a mental hospital.

And that probably had, uh,
the biggest effect on my life.

He was a great guy.

I loved him dearly, and that was
a tremendous loss for me, to see,

because he was a changed man.

They gave him shot treatments, and he was
completely different when he came back.

He couldn't remember even bedtime stories.

And so that was, had a big impact on
me as I grew up, I did not have the

benefit, a lot of, of having a lot of
men around me are a good man in my life.

My dad was a good man.

He's very religious.

He was in and out of mental
hospitals, but he, he, you know,

when I wrote the book, ultimately
he was, he was a role model for me.

He was a very honorable man.

And despite his difficulties, you know,
Martin Luther King says, you, you.

We find out about people not in
times of ease and comfort, but

in times of struggle and stress.

That's the, that's how we test people.

And, uh, my dad was under tremendous
struggle and stress, and yet he always

moved in the direction of trying
to do the right thing, you know.

And so, uh, as I got older, I was
able to appreciate that a lot more.

So.

As I got older, I came out to California
when I did my early twenties to

sort of set up a life for myself,
my family, like there was a lot of

mental illness in my family in St.

Louis.

And so it was get a fresh
start here in California.

And my wife and I, uh, my young wife,
we'd been married very, very short time.

And we set up a business
called Action Duct Cleaning.

And I think I was maybe 22
years old at the time, something

like that, 24, I think.

And so now we're in our 46th.

Year of business, you being a gen five
of a family business can appreciate that

long haul, you know, and so, uh, the
business has done extremely well and,

and where we handle a lot of well known
brands that, you know, household names

that you, you would know and fortune
500 companies, we do thousands of.

We clean dryer ducts, we do a lot
of industrial cleaning, we clean

storage silos, and baking ovens,
and all kinds of things around

California and the United States.

We have franchises in Southern
California, we're opening up offices

in other locations, and growing still.

Even after all these years, and I'm
very proud of what we've become.

And my wife and I have two children.

I have a daughter who's, both of
them have postgraduate degrees.

One's got a master's degree
in public administration.

She worked for a non profit.

And my other daughter is an attorney.

She graduated UCLA Law, and
she's an estate attorney.

And they have given my wife and I seven
beautiful grandchildren and I, you

know, I look at these beautiful children
and I, I think if I just had one of

them, I think of myself as the richest
guy in town and I have seven of them.

So I have been unable to, unable
to measure my gratitude for

this, these beautiful children.

So my wife and I have now been
married for, we're in our 48th year.

And I'm one lucky guy, given where
I started from, I thank God and

anybody else who will listen every
single day for where I am in life.

That,

that sounds like an amazing legacy.

So do your daughters and
family live close by?

Do you get to see your
grandkids on a regular basis?

Every, almost every day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Today I'm picking up one of the,
my grandson from his football game.

A couple days ago, I was picking up
the, uh, my oldest granddaughter from

school and talking about her driving
lessons and, uh, uh, I have two up

North and I've got five in Southern
California and North, I say North,

Northern California, but we see them
regularly and uh, they come down a lot.

We go up there.

And so, uh, I'm very lucky I
get to see all seven of them,

and they're all doing very well.

Uh, they're all great kids and, and
smart, capable, and, and they're,

they're kind of, uh, beautiful life
trajectories, all of them different.

And it's a, it's a beautiful
thing to be able to take part in.

That's, that's

fantastic.

My parents are very
involved with our kids.

And so that, that is a gift when you
can have that opportunity to be close

by and, and just have that time.

And even the little things like
picking the kids up or the grandkids

up from school, that that's just really

precious.

Yeah.

Even those conversations, you know,
that take place are like you say,

they're very precious and there's
something different about being a

grandfather than being a father.

The biggest one is I don't have to be the
cop and that makes all the difference in

the world, you know, because the kids.

See me a little differently.

It's interesting.

They see me even more,
uh, uniquely as who I am.

I think that my own kids do because my
kids have this, this culture or legacy

with me of, of when I've had to deal with
the, um, during difficult times, you know?

And so, yeah, it's definitely
a different relationship.

But it doesn't matter
how small of an event.

Uh, in fact, on Saturday, I'm hoping to
take my, one of my grandsons along with

me to a, a gardening club that I go to.

We, uh, they do what's called
a scion exchange where you can

change, exchange plant clippings,
you know, and so yeah, each little

bit all, all means the world to me.

No, that's amazing.

Yeah, that's just great.

Thank you for sharing that.

And just kind of giving
us a sense of who you are.

I think I'd like to dive
in if you don't mind.

You talked about your dad a little
bit and we'll get into the book.

But I'd love to know more
about how your early childhood

experience, you know, impacted you.

I think for a lot of men, there can
be good elements of our upbringing.

There can be, I guess, negative or
even traumatic elements, but all

of those can can be factored into
Creating the men we become, you know,

and all of those can, if we choose.

impact us in a positive way that allows
us to grow into a man who can serve

and do something good in the world.

And so we'd love to kind of know what your
experience was and how you were able to

take that and take a, an experience that
would have been challenging and go build a

business and write a book and, and really
serve a lot of people and, and really use

that to your advantage, it sounds like.

Yeah, well,

it was a process.

That's definitely for sure.

Like I said, my, my father was
my hero when I was a little kid.

And then when he was, uh, blown up,
you might say at a very young age, his,

even at four years old, the guy that I
knew stuck with me the rest of my life.

When I became a grandfather, I
couldn't wait to do with my grandchild.

He was a father, as a father.

The little games and stuff he used to
do with me when I was a little kid.

And so, and I definitely noticed he,
like I said, he was a religious man.

He worked hard.

He took pride in his work.

I tell a lot of stories in the book,
The Men's Coat of Honor, about my

dad, about how he worked very blue
collar, you know, minimum wage jobs.

But he took, he would come home and
he would take pride in the hard work

and the good job he did, you know.

And he took pride in
supporting his family.

It meant the world to him.

He wasn't, he didn't want to hand out it.

It was not in him.

And so I saw that growing up.

When I was about 10 years
old, we had so little money.

My mom asked if one of my
aunts would take me in.

I was, and she, my mom literally didn't
have enough money for food for all of us.

And so, my aunt had 10 children,
actually 11 at that time.

And she took me in, I guess
what was one more on them.

But she had a very nice house, orderly.

They were a blue collar family, and
they certainly didn't have a lot of

money, but she managed it real well.

And her son, Jim, he's still around.

Jim Mertz is his name.

And he set a wonderful example
to me, I would say, as a youth.

He was set a set, the best
example for me and, and I was

kind of rough around the edges.

I was hanging around bad kids at the
time and you know, had some bad habits.

But man, I saw how PE he was 14, I
was 10 and he wanted to go to Bible

college, even at the age of 14.

And I saw what, how people
loved this man, a young man.

And he was always trying to do things
positive in a constructive way.

And he respected people and
he showed respect for me.

He was helpful.

And I thought, wow, I want to be
that guy, you know, that's the

kind of person I would like to be.

And so literally, I think it was a
new year's over Christmas vacation.

I made a new year's resolution.

I think it was the first time
I ever did that, that I'm

going to be more like that guy.

You know, that was very long.

That was life changing.

That really put me.

It on a personal decision
to change, right?

Even at age 10, but over time
also, I would just watch other men.

How do they do this?

You know, what is it that are,
what are the roles of men?

I would say, even when I look back, oddly
enough, TV characters played a role.

Back then there were some really
great TV characters, Buddy Epson.

He was an actor who played
a guy named Jed Clampett.

In a, in a, it called the
Beverly Hillbillies, right?

And he was this older man who was the, he
was sort of the patriarch of the family.

Wise, calm, sensible, you know,
and I thought, I like this guy.

This is the way a man should be, right?

And so there were a lot of people
like that who sort of built up.

And so when it came time
for me to write the book.

I drew on all of those guys, but
I also started making a little

later in the conversation.

We can look at that, but I just
started looking at men's coats,

you know, what's expected of
men, what's been expected of men.

And it's pretty clear, isn't it?

If you look through history.

Men have had very clear roles.

And so that sort of helped even
crystallize my thinking more about

what kind of a man I wanna be.

I, I'm a writer.

I would love to say I'm the perfect
example of the men's code of honor,

but I, if I did that, I would be
failing the first point of the

code, which is to tell the truth.

, I try, but I'm, I'm just the messenger.

But I certainly learned a lot from
writing the book, and I, I try my

best also to emulate what those
are, those points in the book.

I

think you bring up a great point
in perspective, it's such a needed

thing for young men to have other
men that they can look to and who are

role models who are doing it right.

And, you know, we're in a society now
where all the dads on TV or in the media

are portrayed as just bumbling idiots.

And, you know, there's just fewer and
fewer, I believe, opportunities for, for

young boys who need that great, solid role
model to look to, you know, to define that

and to have that naturally in their life.

I was blessed with a great father.

And on top of that, I've, I've had
just coaches and mentors, people I've

worked for who all really imparted
just wisdom in a, in a model of what

honorable masculinity looks like.

And I benefited from that, but.

You know, I'm fortunate, not everybody
gets that opportunity, but it's so

necessary in, in transferring all of
that passed down knowledge and, and, and

responsibility to, to the next generation.

Yes,

you, you're quite right.

You know, an interesting experience
in my life has been because I run a

company and we have a lot of, it's a
blue collar work and also outside of

my company, I've had lots of fatherless
men in my life, uh, young men.

And so they come to work for me and
it turns out their dad was absent or

an alcoholic or whatever the issue
is, and they come to me, you know,

and say, you know, I, I didn't really
know what to do in these situations.

What do I do?

Or they come to me and they after.

They worked in my company
even, you know, we have very

clear standards in my company.

We have company values, you know, and
they, they start telling me how that's

helped shape their own understanding
of what, what, what good behavior is.

And so you're right.

Boys or young men need men in their
lives who will set an example.

And again, I, I don't want
to hold myself up as like.

Yeah, I'm, I'm the perfect example.

Ask my wife and children and they
will find, believe me, they will find

exceptions to any statement like that.

I tried to use that as a guy basically.

Right.

And so I, I think that there
are so many young men out there.

They're starved for this because as
you say, they're in a society where the

strong man and by strong, I don't mean
mean or hostile or domineering, you know,

we're just talking about someone who
wears the roles of manhood, you know, you

know, George Patton, he said, and this
is really the, the essence of the code

is that duty is the essence of manhood.

And really, when you look through the code
of honor, it's got 66 points in it, every

one of them just is identifying a duty
that we have to ourselves, to the people

in our lives, and we feel so much better.

When we, first of all, understand,
yeah, I have that duty.

And when I felt bad about myself,
it's usually because I failed in

that duty somewhere along the way
that I never understood why I never

understood why I didn't think so
highly of myself, you know, but you

look back and you go these duties.

So the code kind of helps crystallize
that, you know, so that, like I

said, the young men in my life, I
think more, more that than anything.

They appreciate the codification, the
understanding of this is okay, this

is not okay, this is what's expected
of me, and I need to try to rise, rise

to that bar of what's expected of me.

And when you talk about duty,
it's really put another way.

It's simply responsibility and the
acceptance of the responsibilities that

are in front of us, whether that's to
supporting our families, to protecting,

providing, leading in the business, in
the workplace, serving our communities.

It's really just being willing to
step into roles of responsibility that

really are benefiting other people.

That

is exactly right.

And I think that one of the, when you
mentioned the word responsibility,

it sends a shiver up a lot of young
men's spines, you know, because it's

like, Oh no, because if I'm, as soon
as I say I'm responsible, then I

have to accept the fact that, that,
that I don't know how to do things.

I don't know how to be.

Honest with people.

I don't know, you know, what, if I'm
making mistakes or if I'm a failure,

they're afraid to face their own failures
and there's nothing wrong with failing.

Failing means you're trying.

And so that's how we all learn
is how we regroup in my company.

We, I, I have a very high end.

We deal with a lot of high end clients.

We deal with highly technical
situations and we experience failure.

And we regroup and we, we sit
back and we do an autopsy.

How, how did this happen?

You know, but that's failure is part of
responsibility and it's, and being honest

with yourself that you, you don't know
how to do something that's, that's part

of being responsible and it's okay to be.

To accept the fact that you don't
know, it doesn't mean you're a

bad person or stupid or weak.

In fact, weak people are the
ones who don't take, don't admit

that they're making mistakes.

Those are the weak people.

I've known a lot of young men
who've come to me and apologized

and said, I didn't do this right.

I'm so sorry.

Or I cost the company money.

And they didn't, I don't
think they fully understand.

I respected them more for that than
I would have for the guy who gets it

right, but who lies about it when,
when things go wrong, you know.

Well, it takes a lot of

courage to own up to that fact that
you messed up or did something wrong.

And I think for men, especially, there's
just a big pride element that really gets

in the way where we want to be perfect.

Well, really, that's a pride thing.

And.

We have to be humble enough to
admit when we're wrong or when

we fail or fall short or mess up.

That's very true.

And in groups of men in the military or,
you know, athletic teams and stuff like

that, they hound guys for making mistakes.

You know, that's kind
of a thing amongst men.

They, they write them about it and you've
got to be able to accept that as well.

You know, that's usually
done in good humor.

But it also, like you said, it's a
point of courage to be able to step

up and say, I did this, you see this
among really quality athletes, you

know, they're willing to step up and
say, no, this happened, this is on me.

And you see it also in any, any walk
of life in the military, military

leaders will say, we fail here.

And this is, this is, I'm responsible
for this unit and therefore this

is on me and it does, it takes
a lot of courage, but that's.

That willingness to accept being
wrong or making a mistake is the

only way that any of us could grow.

And it also sets an
example to those around us.

If you're in a leadership
position, you need these people

to feel safe in coming to you.

Well, they're not going to feel
safe in coming to a person that

never admits a mistake, right?

Because they think his standard is
you got to be perfect all the time.

And if they go to a person who's,
I'm going to use a word that's

not usually associated with men,
and that's the word vulnerable.

But if you show vulnerability, like
you said, that's strength, actually, it

takes strength to show vulnerability.

That means you're, you know, then you're
willing to take a punch basically.

Right.

You're willing to present, you know,
Socrates said the way to live with

honor is to be who we pretend to be.

And so if you're, you're willing to
put who you really are out there.

And say, I'm sorry, but I'd
like to be this guy you think I

am, but here's who I really am.

That's really people will be open and
more responsible in the presence of

leadership like that or a person like

that.

Gosh, you bring up such a great point
with that, that, you know, if, if we

expect that That responsibility from the
people that maybe report to us or even

our family members, you know, if we expect
that from other people is men is leaders.

We have to demonstrate that first.

And I know as a business leader, one of
the best ways that I can serve my team.

And really create a safe space
where they can, they can fail.

They can mess up because I
want them trying new things.

I want them to feel
comfortable in their role.

And if I try to put on a face
of perfection, then that means

that they have to be that too.

So when I admit my own failures and I
take responsibility for the shortfalls.

then that creates a safe environment
for them to mess up, too.

But it really is the leader who has
to go first and model that behavior

in order to create that sense of
safety for everybody else around them.

Yeah,

absolutely.

In groups of men, you know, when I
was young, the idea of the strong, the

strong silent type was kind of a classic.

The cowboys, there were cowboys,
there were generals, and you

know, there were business owners.

It was a very much a
male dominated society.

It's still a male dominated society.

Most CEOs are men.

Most military leaders are men.

Uh, the people in charge of
the money in the world are men.

It doesn't mean that women aren't playing
a much bigger role and rightfully so.

It's really great to see, but
that quality of being strong.

Came across to some people is never
show weakness and they consider

vulnerability to be a weakness.

But I think over time, men have
understood that showing some weakness

is actually showing some truth and
showing truth requires courage.

So if you really think it through
failing to refusing to show weakness is

a refusing to a refusal to be honest.

And in the bigger picture, you're going to
attract more respect by being honest than

you are by trying to present a picture
of strength that may not be accurate.

I

think that, uh, telling the truth and
stepping into that vulnerable space can be

one of the most terrifying things for men.

And, and a lot of that is just put on
us by society and by culture and how we

were brought up and what we've been told.

But you're right when you are
willing to be vulnerable, it is a

massive Step forward into the courage
space, but it's also what connects

us and it's what makes us real.

And I think it's what can help set the
best example for the people around us.

Totally.

When I was putting together the code,
and there are 66 points in the Code

of Honor in my book, I realized that
telling the truth was, without that one,

The rest of the code was meaningless.

And that's very hard because the people
we lie to the most are ourselves, right?

And even no matter how hard you try,
I mean, I have, as I've grown older,

I'm 69 now, and I've had numerous come
to Jesus moments, you might say, where

I realized, you know, I haven't been
being honest with myself about this.

I thought I was.

So there, there's sort of even a
subconscious dishonesty that we can't

always get around, you know, because
of what, for whatever reason, we're not

ready to see that maybe you might say,
but it's very difficult to be fully honest

with yourself, but in really, in order
to execute all the other points of, of

really honorable behavior or honorable
choices and decisions, uh, you really

have to start with telling the truth.

And again, that includes being honest.

Okay.

about weaknesses and that sort of thing.

Now, of course, in, in men are often
in difficult positions, uh, CEOs or

military leaders where they're, they
can't tell everybody how weak the

situation is or an illegal situation,
for example, you know, uh, their

strategic moves and stuff like that.

I'm not saying they should go around
lying, but they may not want to reveal

every weakness that's going on for.

You know, there's a person who may be,
uh, you know, uh, like I said, a military

leader, he may not want the enemy to
know that he, they're out of, they're

out of ammunition for the next three
days, you know, because that, that could

kill morale and that sort of thing.

So there are points where, where you have
to think those things through, but if you

want to try to live honorably, it really
requires telling the truth up front.

And also you're not going to grow.

You're not going to grow if you don't
tell the truth, even to yourself,

that's, that's how you find out what
needs to be fixed and what needs to

and where the improvements need to be.

The

biggest challenge we have, I think,
as men is we can talk ourselves

into a lot of things that we
shouldn't talk ourselves into, right?

Like we're our own best salesperson.

And so, you know, just being aware of
that and, and having the, the courage

to step in and look in the mirror.

Usually we are the common
denominator for all of our problems.

Usually it's, you know, things are
our fault, not somebody else's.

And so just having that courage to tell
the truth, I think that is the first step.

And, and you got to tell the
truth to yourself first, and that

can be hard.

It can be very hard, but I think if you
want to live in peace, also, you have

to be able to see, you know, yeah, these
guys did this to me, who made the choice

to bring these guys in, in the first
place, right, or what role did I play in

what appears to be a victim situation,
where I'm the victim, what role have I

played here in bringing this upon myself
or my family, you And that sort of thing.

And you have to be able to find out
where you played the role, right?

Where your responsibility came in.

Otherwise you go through a life
where people are picking on you

and you can't do anything about it.

Right.

Or there's just these random events.

And, uh, certainly random events
happen and there are certainly con

artists and all kinds of other people
out there who will be dishonest or

betray you and that sort of thing.

We've all had those experiences.

You have to really do everything you can
to look at what role you play in bringing

that about so that you can, otherwise, how
are you going to make a better life for

yourself so that you're not continuously.

Being the victim of this, you know, one
of the, uh, things that you mentioned,

uh, the, in society, how, uh, modern
society has, has shown men as, as bumbling

idiots or weak and that sort of thing.

A lot of this has to
do with the transition.

Again, I mentioned I grew up in the
60s where the feminist movement began,

and there's been many social movements
like this where in order to change

society, they're, they're sort of,
it goes a bit to an extreme first,

and then it comes back to a balance.

And there's no question that women
have made a lot of good gains,

correct gains, right and just gains.

You know, they're, they're, they're
in professions like the law.

Or there was a time when women
didn't even go to college.

They didn't have the right to vote.

And so there's been a lot of
rightful change for women.

But unfortunately, there is a
minority in the society that

presented this as, well, that means
men, it's, we're oppressed by men.

And so therefore men have to stop
behaving in a strong or dominant

way, or they have to stop exercising
their, their natural tendency to

be strong or to be leaders, right?

And so that's really understandable why
people might feel that way, but it's not,

it's not what the way that we're built.

Women want strong men.

Most women, they do not want men who
are mealy mouthed, or weak, or who, uh,

don't have a sense of self confidence,
or who don't try to do better.

You still hear, wait till
your father gets home.

It's not, wait till your
mother gets home, right?

Ha ha ha ha.

They don't want weak fathers.

They don't want their sons to see
their dad going, well, gee whiz,

son, you know, uh, maybe that, that
guy, that kid beat you up at school.

Maybe you ought to apologize to him and
maybe you should just avoid that kid.

And, you know, no, they, they want to
teach, not necessarily beat the other kid

up, but they want to say, no, you know,
you need to stand up for your rights.

He do what a male would do
in that situation, right.

Or a strong male.

They want their kids to be taught to be
strong young men, or they want, if there's

a noise downstairs, my wife doesn't go
down and investigate, she says, I need

to go down and look at where, what's
that, what is that noise down there,

you know, if there's a car that needs
to be pushed, they're like, you know,

my wife's not going to push that car,
I'm going to be pushing that car, right?

Women want these guys, and they, okay.

They're genetically, uh, built to
appreciate that for the most part, like

we're genetically built to appreciate
women who are feminine, you know, man,

you, you show a woman on the screen with
feminine qualities, guys, why, I don't

know if you were to put something on their
brains, you know, some, uh, monitors,

electroencephalographs or something, you'd
see areas, their blank brains lighting

up, you know, that they like that.

And the same with women, they like.

Seeing a strong man, you know,
you'd see some changes and

so, uh, those are natural.

We're wired that way and
there's nothing wrong with that.

But because of, again, these societal
movements, uh, and again, uh, it's great

that women have gained more rights.

What gets lost in that argument about
women gaining more rights is they've

gained more rights because of men.

Women got the right to vote.

Guess what?

Guess who voted for that?

Men voted for that.

There weren't any women available to
vote for, give women the right to vote.

It was men who did that.

It's men who've passed laws against rape.

And who've passed laws against
discrimination against women.

Most of our legislative bodies are men.

And so these changes wouldn't
have, so this talk about how

men are out to get women, I'm
sorry, but it doesn't hold water.

The changes that have occurred
societally because of, uh, have occurred.

Yes, because of women's voices, but also
because men care about these things.

And the honorable masculinity that you
and I, I think, believe in and would

champion and would and take a stand
for would never be something that.

Puts women down or creates a sense
of fear or or harm or, or, you know,

uses the strength or the power as
a mean of means of personal gain.

It's self sacrificing, you know, in
the Bible, Jesus talks about, hey,

husbands, treat your, you know, love
your wife like I love the church.

Well, he died on a cross for the church.

And so, you know, men are to
die to themselves in service

and honor and in love.

Of their families, and I would just
argue that the toxic masculinity

headline is referring to something
that's not masculine to begin with.

It is a refusal of men to
embrace real masculinity.

They're stuck in boyhood as grown
males, but they have not embraced their

God given role and responsibility to
be men of value who create safety.

and insecurity for the
people that, that are around

them.

You are exactly right.

And I think that this term toxic
masculinity, there are fringes, let's

say minorities in the society who have
these, maybe they've had bad experiences.

Maybe these people are, can't
deal with stressful events.

I don't know what, what's going on there.

But they're talking about,
as you say, Wife beaters.

They're talking about men who are
alcoholics, men who will not let

women express their opinions, men who
demand that their wives, you know,

there are old school guys that refuse
to let their wives work even, you

know, and so yeah, and that's not.

Honorable, right?

And men still, they don't need
to dominate in order to be a man.

You know, there are, there are
men married who are blue collar.

I know blue collar guys married
to doctors, women doctors,

or who are married to women.

The women make a lot more than they do,
you know, or the man is the guy back

home with the kids, or I've even known
of situations like that, you know, and

that doesn't mean they're not a man.

And so I think if you, these terms
toxic masculinity is an effort, you

know, men do the same with women.

I talked to a lot of men's groups,
you know, and one of them, I

was surprised they had a very.

A generally negative view of women,
because you can stereotype women

as well as you can stereotype men.

And so that is useless, because
that's not all women, right?

Because women obviously
have honor as well.

In fact, I've been approached by a woman
who says, Hey, why don't, why don't you

write a book on a woman's code of honor?

And I thought that would be
a really interesting thing.

It's not considered a no because
men's code of honors, if I can kind of

shift to a different, more historical
discussion, they've been the focal point.

It goes back, the most well known
ones are the codes of chivalry.

And it goes back to like the
1100s and stuff like that.

And they were a combination, these
codes were a combination of religious

and military codes and how to behave.

That's where we get the word chivalry.

Really, menschivory is considered
gentlemanly or honorable

behavior from the word cheval.

It's the French word cheval meaning horse.

It's a horseman and so, or a knight.

So these, these codes have
been more male oriented, but

obviously women have their own.

If you were to sit down and crystal
that might be very interesting to

crystallize what women consider to be.

Honorable behavior, you know, I, I've
often thought that would be a great thing

to do, but yes, the toxic masculinity
thing, I think is it's a buzz phrase

that has gotten some, some play.

But it's brilliant presenting the
extremist, the, it's what happens when

you take masculine behavior and it's
worse, basically, you know, beating

a child or, or whatever that is.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, on that note, I'm talking about the
book to shift a little bit over to that.

Would love to know kind of what
inspired you to go down this path

when you and I were first talking.

I actually was searching for a book on.

Honor codes, and it's amazing how many
romance novels on the iTunes bookstore I

had to scroll past before I got to yours.

There were surprisingly
few options out there.

And I think that just says so much
about the world we're in today and,

and two points to me that it's just
something that's more needed, but

maybe not the most, most popular thing.

But what really got you interested
in this and committed to it?

Because there's, you know, there's a lot
of work that obviously went into this

and it's very well written and thorough.

And so, you know, take
us down that journey.

You know, I've been a writer for many
years, but I was on a trip in Utah.

With some friends, we were
hiking and we were in the car.

And I had mentioned at that time, women's
boxing was just sort of on the rise.

It was a new thing.

It was a kind of a gimmick that
was going on where, where if you

wanted to watch a heavyweight bout
on back then, we did a lot of pay

per view and that sort of thing, you
want to watch heavyweight boxing.

And one of the undercards or
the, the bouts before the main

event was a women's boxing match.

And I, we, I'd never seen one before.

And I had a bunch of
guys over at my house.

And so we were kind of
very curious about this.

Well, as soon as the, the boxing match
started for the women and I'm shifting

from the Utah story, but I, I was
explaining this Mac boxing match as we

were driving through Utah with a friend
of mine and his son in the backseat.

And, and we were watching, I
was watching this boxing match

with these guys at my house.

And as soon as the first punches
started getting thrown between

these two women, the room was,
the men just started groaning.

And, oh no, oh, oh, I mean that they were,
all of us were doing that in the room

because we'd never seen women being hit.

Like this, it was shocking to us and,
and very difficult to just reach, not

reach into the TV and stop this, right?

And so I was telling this story on our
trip to Utah with my friend's son in

the backseat, and he said, why would
your friends act like this when, when

they saw this, this boxing match?

And I said, well, you know, there's,
there's an unwritten code amongst men

that we, we don't want women to be hurt.

We, we want to protect them.

And so just to have to stand by
and watch these women hurt each

other was, was extremely hard.

And I'm looking at his dad and
his dad's nodding his head.

Oh yeah, the, the unwritten code.

Oh sure.

You know, it's like he
knew the unwritten code.

I knew the unwritten code.

And I thought, how come
nobody's written this down?

You know, we, we all get it.

Uh, when I'm amongst a group of men and,
you know, and some, if, if some guy was

20 feet away slapping his girlfriend,
I can assure you that group of men

isn't going to stand and keep talking
and ignoring that they're going to,

it's going to go right up their spines.

They're going to do something about this.

Right.

And so obviously we have something within
us or either societally learned and.

Biological as well, that this
sort of a bunch of dictates in us.

And what are those, you know?

And so I went and I, uh, began,
it actually took a few years

before I put the book together.

But I, I researched all the codes
of conduct, chivalry, military.

There's the Boy Scouts code.

There's stuff that I grew up with,
the Lone Ranger's Creed, you know,

from an old TV show, The Lone Ranger.

Roy Roger was another cowboy,
you know, he had a creed.

There's a lot of these codes out there.

And so I went through, I
think, about 22 of them.

And then I looked at, and I actually
wrote down these questions, I

asked myself some questions.

What are men genetically designed to do?

What have men traditionally
done for thousands of years?

What do men expect of other men?

That's a big one.

You know, you're a man.

When you're around a group of men,
there are certain expectations.

And when those things don't happen,
the other men look at each other like,

did that guy just say what I think he
did or, you know, that kind of a thing.

Right.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Another one, what feelings cause
a man to feel less of a man?

We all know those things, right?

But what slurs are the
most insulting to a man?

If somebody called me a wife
beater, that would like.

Man, I would have a very
strong reaction to that, right?

What failings does a man hope that
other men won't find out about him?

What qualities and duties most
fit the male and physiology,

physiology and temperament.

What rules of conduct are necessary
so that typical negative male behavior

can be controlled or channeled.

When you're in the military
or other groups of men.

There are, they know that men are gonna,
there's sexual behavior, there's foul

language, there's physical aggression,
uh, there are things, men get into fights,

there are certain things that, this has
been going on for thousands of years, and

so we can predict, you throw a bunch of
guys together, that these possibilities,

these are possibilities, we gotta come up
with some rules to deal with that, right?

So what are those rules?

What can men most commonly
try to teach boys?

And then there was a last one
here, is what does our language

emphasize regarding men and boys?

When I started studying our linguistics,
I'm big on linguistics, and so when

I started seeing phrases to, you
act like a man, you man up, uh, and

one of our phrases, what kind of a
man would do something like that?

Well, when you say that, that means that
You have expectations on a man, right?

Well, what are those
expectations, you know?

And so that's how this code came about.

I tried to dissect all this and distill
it into, and it ended up being 66 points.

I think about six different, six
or seven different subject areas of

honesty, of integrity, work, duty.

In those areas.

And so it was, it was a blast.

I just absolutely loved doing
it and it made me a better man

because I saw, wow, there's.

Because it crystallizes things where
you get to a crossroads and you're

thinking, what do I do in this situation?

And it really crystal, well, this is
what an honorable, honorable man does.

Another thing I realized when I went
through this, but you talked about the,

the role of, of men in the lives of women.

It's not toxic masculinity, masculinity,
men's, we accept amongst each other as

men that men's lives are cheaper than
women's, not, not the other way around.

Men are the ones who go to war.

Men are the ones, like I said,
my wife sends me down to see if

there's a burglar downstairs, right?

I'm the guy with the cheap life, right?

And that's okay with, that's
the other thing that I realized,

that's okay with us guys.

When I was a boy, there was a famous
phrase that when a ship went down

in the 1800s, there was a famous
phrase, women and children first.

And I grew up listening to that.

First, when I heard that, I
thought, well, that's not fair.

You know, I immediately understood.

That's the way it is.

You know, that's the way it is.

My life is cheaper.

And, and that's okay with me,
and that's okay with, I've never

heard a guy complain about that,

ever.

The men we are, uh, aspiring to be,
you know, who steps in front of that

bullet, there's not even a thought.

It's just a response and a
reaction to do the right thing.

And my wife and I have
conversations all the time.

I mean, I was gone for a couple
of nights and then I came back

and she said, I just sleep so
much better when when you're here.

There's just such a sense
of safety when you're here.

And you're right.

If there's a loud noise or a bang
at the door or something, it's

not her that gets out of bed.

It's me.

Yeah.

And that's how it should be.

And When you have a code like this, I
think a lot of what it helps you to do

is pre decide how you're going to act.

You know, one of the, one of the
challenges I think for a lot of

young boys, I mean, you look, we've
talked a little bit about it, but

you talk about the fatherless home.

You talk about a society that is
distorting and confusing men or boys

as to what it even means to be a man.

And without.

a mentor father generation being able
to hand down those unwritten rules and

codes, then you've got these boys that are
trying to figure out how to do it and they

don't have a, they don't have a template.

And so when they're faced with
the challenge or faced with

the which decision do I make?

They don't have a model that That is
going to help them determine ahead

of time what's the right thing to do.

And I think that's, that's why books like
this are just so valuable and important

is for us to realize that the unwritten
side of things has really gotten disrupted

because of how many fatherless homes there
are, how many absent fathers there are.

And how much confusion and distortion that
this society is trying to create for men

to even understand what it means to show

up.

That's right.

And I think we've gotten, because
of modern technology, we've gotten

away from our biological roots.

I mean, we are genetic.

I used to wear genetic.

I don't mean to say that.

Men, or even people, I'm a pretty
spiritual guy and I, and I, uh, I see

us as more than animals, you know,
and so I don't mean to say that this,

that our biology dictates everything.

Obviously it does not, we're built
for certain roles and, uh, you can't

really get away from a lot of that.

Uh, when you mentioned that your
wife sleeps so much better or

feels more, my wife says exactly
those, those, almost those exact

words that's because guess what?

That's physical.

She's describing physical
sensations, right?

And so, and me too, I
have physical sensations.

When I protect my family,
it feels good, you know?

That feels good, man.

It's

almost a piece of you that's like, I kind
of want that guy to come to the door,

like, just so I can, like, prove it.

I don't know that, you know, ideally
that wouldn't happen, but there's,

there's this, I don't know, this
male piece of me that's like,

Uh, just, just give me a chance.

I need

to flex that every once in a while.

Yeah.

I think that's why guys like to
go hunting, but we like wrestling.

We like a lot of those things.

We need to flex that every once in a
while, you know, but I agree with you.

But yeah, I, and I think that
because of modern technology,

we've, we've moved away.

From a lot of our biological roots.

And so they think, well, we, we don't
need to be protect women anymore.

We don't, you know, women
conduct, they can get black belts.

They had got cans of mace.

We have police departments.

There's all these, you
know, I got locked doors.

We're not living in tents anymore
where the, where the Raiders can

come in and take our women away.

And so that is all true, but
there's still, like you said,

there's elements where women.

There are still plenty of situations
where, where women need, would rather have

a guy around to protect them or the, or
to do the heavy lifting or to fix the car

or, you know, to tell the kids, you know,
I've, I've noticed with general, and this

is a generality that with dads, dads don't
want their kids to suffer in the future.

But women, moms, they don't
want their kids to suffer now.

And so the women are inclined
to nurture, to, to feel bad.

Whereas dad say, I don't care.

I'm, I'm willing to let you not
like me today, as long as you don't

suffer in the future from these bad
decisions or irresponsibility or

whatever it is you're doing today.

And so it is a different, and again, these
are generalities and there are a lot of

single moms that have to play both roles.

And so they, they, they get
to be the tough person, you

know, women want that guy.

They want to be able to say,
wait till your father gets home.

You know, they prefer, and again, these
are all generalities, but yeah, we've

gotten, technology has made us think
that we don't need those roles anymore.

And yeah, there's some
truth to that, but I think.

It's, it's a mask generally.

Uh, you still have to
acknowledge what role do we play?

Okay.

So we're not going after Raiders
coming into our camp anymore.

That's not happening anymore.

They're not stealing our women anymore.

They're not burning down
our village anymore.

Okay.

Those aren't happening.

But still we have modern versions of that.

You know, we have fentanyl
coming across the border.

You know, we've got robberies that happen.

We have people that steal our stuff
if we don't lock our gates, you

know, or lock our doors, you know,
so we have modern versions of it.

It's not gone away.

We just, we just have to learn
how do we, uh, reflect this

masculine female relationship.

And it's very different
because of technology.

We have just a broad, uh,
range of variations with

each, every couple, frankly.

They're going to have different versions.

It's not as standardized as it used
to be a thousand years ago, where

every woman knew she was going to
grow up and take care of her husband

and fix food and take care of kids.

You know, that we have way a
lot more variations on that

same theme these days, you

know, we do.

And yet the principles can still
stay the same, you know, regardless

of the individual nuances of even my
wife and I were talking last night.

It's like you look at marriages
and there's so many different ways

that it works for different people.

And that's, that's great.

That's how it should be.

But that still doesn't excuse a man from
for showing up and being able to play

his part, whatever that looks like, and
being able to be just an honorable man.

I'm curious, you know, it's been a
few years since you wrote the book.

Since then, is there, and you know,
having some time go by, as you look

back on it, what would you, if anything,
write in differently today that that

That you may see after having written
the book, would you change anything?

Would you, how would you update it?

Like, what do you see in that

regard?

You know, I would probably
update the text to some degree.

There are some references in there.

It's surprisingly stable.

And that, that's one of the things
I looked at it when you called me,

I wrote it originally 12 years ago.

And the points are, nothing has changed.

There's one point in
there that I may change.

And that was marry the
mother of your children.

I was giving a talk, a friend
of mine, his name's Dr.

Steven Johnson.

He's he's held men's retreats for.

I don't know, 30 years.

He stopped doing it a few years ago,
but he, he asked me a number of times

to go present to the men at his retreat.

And so I was giving a talk there and
there was a man there in his thirties

and this guy had an incredible story.

He had grown up in the ghettos
and, and he had had a rough

life and he changed his life.

And now he was mentoring young men
and he had a bunch of adolescents he

had brought to the retreat, males.

And I had the, it was just an honor
for me, a privilege to be able to

talk to these boys about honor and
what it was because they had grown up

under very difficult circumstances.

A lot of them had no dads.

And, and I said, you know, This is the
kind of man that you want for a dad.

That's that was the way I
was able to communicate, not

so much to them as adults.

But this, this man who was leading
this, who was mentoring these young men.

When I said, marry the mother
of your children, he looked at,

he looked at me and then at his.

The shoulder sag because he had made
some mistakes, obviously, like many

men do, and had decided to have sex
with the wrong woman who was turned

out to be a drug addict, or she stayed
as a drug addict, maybe a prostitute.

I can't remember what
the story was anymore.

Maybe she had a severe psychiatric
illness, you know, maybe she

didn't want to marry him, but
he had children by this woman.

And so when I said, he
said, but what do you do?

He said, what do you
do in these situations?

And so, uh, even though when I wrote
the book, the standard of marry

the mother of your children, that's
been around for thousands of years.

The shotgun wedding is very well known.

I'm from Missouri.

Believe me, shotgun weddings
are well known in Missouri.

And even if you're a Bedouin in
the Arabic, in Morocco, there are

plenty of men who have had to marry.

They got a pregnant
woman, a woman pregnant.

The rule is you marry her, period.

And so that, that rule's been
around as a, as a point of

honor since day one, probably.

But in modern times, is that rule fair?

Is it sensible?

Is it good for the kids?

Is it good for the man?

Is it good for the woman?

And I think there's, it, it's
fair to question that rule.

I would say, If I were to write it again,
I would still use marry the mother of your

children, but I might put a subtitle under
that plan B, take full responsibility

for any children you bring into the
world because, uh, that's really what

it comes down to if you father a child,
because we have to, we do make mistakes.

And we can't say, well,
you made a mistake.

So this is how you, that may not be
a good solution to marry the mother

of your children in modern society.

And so we have to think that through.

And I think if I was going to make
one change and that's probably one

of the biggest in the code, because
fatherless homes, I believe are.

Maybe, I don't know, for number one
reason for our cultural upheavals

and problems and crime and kids who
don't finish high school or go to

prison, the list, the laundry list of
stats for fatherless homes are gone.

Thank you.

Breathtaking.

Breathtaking.

It's catastrophic.

Yeah.

For society, for community, you
know, it impacts every element

of our world in a negative way.

Exactly.

That's why changing that line.

It was a hard pill for me, a bitter
pill for me to swallow, but I'm just

telling you the facts as I saw them.

And I think that there, but nonetheless,
I believe that, that as men, where

we are letting the world down.

right now is this role as
fathers and raising our Children.

And I would say if there's one
thing we need to fix, that that

would be it before anything else.

I completely agree.

Well, Dan, we're gonna start
wrapping things up here.

This has been a fantastic conversation.

I could keep going for a couple hours.

I know.

What would be your number one bit of
advice for a man that just is looking for?

Maybe he doesn't even know he needs it.

But yeah, You know, he's trying
to show up well for his family.

He's trying to be a great
husband, a great father.

impact his community well, and
you've got these, these, these

principles within this book.

How can a man use that?

And what would you be your best
bit of advice for men today to

show up better for the people that

they love?

Well, I would say, and again, I'm not
I'm not really here to sell books,

but definitely the book would help.

It helped me just writing the book,
crystallize a lot of things in my mind.

It's like, what, what do
you do in these situations?

Right.

But I would say it starts
with telling the truth.

And then a regular inventory of yourself.

Set some standards for yourself.

What are your standards?

Make sure you know what your values are.

Go through the various parts of your
life with your children, your wife.

Do you have it in your heart that
you will never betray your wife?

That you will be faithful to her?

Do you have it in your heart?

That you will, uh, tell the truth.

Do you have it in your heart
that you will do the things?

Look around at the men in
your life who you respect.

Why do you respect them?

What are they doing that, that you
would like to elevate yourself to?

And maybe set yourself a bit of a
list of these are the things, this

is the kind of guy I want to be.

And this is, these are the
standards I'd like to uphold and

take a look at that on a record.

I do this still.

I, I look at these things.

I say, am I meeting the goals
that I have set for myself?

Where have I fallen down or fallen
short or maybe I've neglected something.

And so I, I think if you take regular
stock of yourself, set some standards,

uh, look at the people in your life that
you respect or men you respect, and then

go back and take a look at those, you
know, I've got on my wall right now.

I've got a, a list of things that I
consider to be important points of

my life that I want to uphold and
I, I keep it right in front of me.

So, uh, we have to.

Because the forces of life are powerful.

We get sick, we get
overwhelmed with stress.

Things happen that cause us to be
confused and not know what to do.

And we come out of those messes.

Sometimes you go, wow, I wish I
would have handled that better.

What can I do to, to make my, make sure
that doesn't happen again, or how do I

get back on track and that sort of thing.

So there there's no perfect man
that walks through life and makes

the right choice every, every time.

We've got to keep kind of recalibrating.

And so anyway, that's my advice.

That that's such wise and just great
practical advice, which is what we really

are all about here on this podcast is
just practical, applicable tools that

men can use to live better and and to,
uh, to show up the way they need to.

I think it's awesome.

You have this podcast.

It is such a, like you said,
there's an incredible lack

of, of information for men.

Given that half the population is men,
it's extraordinary how little is out

there and how they they're under assault
really for being men, you know, so I

think it's awesome you're doing this for.

Well, thank you, uh, Dan so
much for coming on today.

Thank you for writing this book
that's needed in our world.

We are going to, and I know
you didn't come on here to sell

books, but we will put the link
to the book in the show notes.

And I just really appreciate your time.

You're doing a great, thank you for being
a voice for men that, that's just needed

and necessary, like you say, because,
because more of us need to speak up.

You're

very welcome.

It's been my privilege to talk to you.

And, uh, it's been a pleasure to
meet you also in this process.

We ask that if you found value in
this, that you subscribe to the

podcast and share with someone that
you think would find value in this as

well.

If there's a man that you know,
who would benefit from this,

please share it with them.

We want to get.

These messages and these tools and
resources out to as many men as we can so

that marriages can be thriving, families
can heal, so kids have great dads, so

that wives have great husbands, and one
man at a time in this world we can make a

difference.