franklin: [00:00:00] Right now, the world needs great men who will stand up and lead with honor, serve with purpose, and courageously fulfill their God given roles as husbands, fathers, leaders, and men. I'm your host, Franklin Swan, bringing you practical tools and powerful conversations you can use every day to build yourself into the man God is calling you to be.
This is the world needs men. Let's go. All right. Welcome back to the world needs men podcast. I'm your host, Franklin Swan, and I have a very special guest with me today, Quentin Hafner. He is a licensed therapist and has his master's degree in psychology. He's a husband and father. He's got Over 20, 000 hours of one on one and group coaching.
He's an author of a book that I first came [00:01:00] across called Black Belt Husband and uh, just released a new book called Go Next Level. And I've been really excited about having Quentin on today, really just to dive in about, uh, how us men can be better husbands, fathers, leaders. in our homes. And so, Quentin, welcome to the show.
I really appreciate your time today.
quentin: Thank you, Franklin. Uh, super excited to be here. Uh, love chatting about all things guys leveling up. So, uh, I can't wait to see where this conversation is going to go.
franklin: Awesome, man. Well, why don't you just, you know, start off a little bit, share your, uh, backstory and how you got into coaching with men and into therapy and in writing the books and, and kind of where all that came from to begin with.
quentin: Yeah, sure. Okay. So I'll give you kind of the quick backstory. So when I was in my, you know, mid to late twenties, uh, met a girl, fell in love, got married, and within two years of getting married, we got a divorce. And, uh, and to say it more accurately, she left me. It wasn't my, it wasn't my choice. And, uh, You know, looking back, you [00:02:00] know, that was, you know, almost 20 years ago and, uh, I can say, you know, so confidently today that, you know, that was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life because it totally transformed everything about who I am, what I do, set me on a journey of healing, of figuring myself out, of learning about myself.
And I do what I do now to try to help the younger version of myself. You know, the guy that I used to be, who was, you know, had lots of good intentions, but was really totally clueless when it came to what does it really take to be a leader inside your marriage? What does it really take to have a sustainable marriage?
What does it take to be truly a great husband, not just an average husband, but Somebody that, you know, is able to just be somebody very different in the world. And so since that time, long ago, I became a therapist and, uh, have a private practice. And like you said, in the intro, I've accumulated [00:03:00] just, uh, you know, too many hours helping guys, uh, figure out marriage stuff.
So that's what I, that's what I do in 2018. I wrote black belt husband as a, as really just a guide. And the reason I wanted to write that book is because At that time, all the material, all the marriage helping material in the world was very effeminate. It was, you know, written by women, uh, for women. And I thought, you know, the world needs.
you know, the guys need a marriage book that feels like something they could relate to. So I wrote black belt husband using jujitsu as a metaphor for marriage. You know, that was, that was like six years ago. So fast forward, that's kind of where we're at today.
franklin: That's awesome. You know, reading the book, the thing that jumped out to me and, and I'd love to kind of hear your, your perspective since you've written it and it's been a few years and just kind of what you've seen since then.
But as I read the book, What I realized is [00:04:00] there were just elements of being a husband that I was simply just not aware of. And I think the way you progress through kind of like a belt system and jujitsu, you know, going from, from white to blue to, to purple to, or brown to purple and so on. It just, it's like, there's more and more depth.
And I saw areas of my, uh, you know, showing up for my, you know, myself as a husband where I was doing okay, doing well. And then other areas where it just helped me to realize that there's just this gap, but I didn't, I didn't really wasn't aware that it existed to begin with. So, I appreciated the book from that perspective and that standpoint just because it helped me to gain a better understanding of what a elite level husband looks like and how can I progress towards it.
I'm curious since you've written the book, like what have you noticed in men as you've trained them in this methodology and you've coached them through this, like how have you seen this be a tool that has allowed them to go from maybe a okay husband to a great husband? [00:05:00]
quentin: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think that most guys, this is kind of my take on, on the world of guys and husbands is that most guys are, they're really great guys.
You know, the guys that I work with, they're all great guys. They care. They want to do well. They want to be good dads. They want to be good husbands. They want to be good in business. They want to be good providers. They want to And even with all of that, there's still a really big gap. And the reason that that gap exists is because the game of marriage has changed.
And most of us men are doing marriage with an antiquated paradigm of what it means to be a husband, because we were role modeled something from our fathers and our grandfathers about what it means to be a husband. And that model doesn't work anymore. Just like Everything else in life evolves. You're [00:06:00] not going to, you know, write a message using a typewriter anymore because you have a laptop and you know, if you used to be a backyard brawler, uh, well that version of, of street fighting doesn't work anymore because the game of fighting has evolved.
Everything in life evolves, everything evolves. And, uh, our roles As husbands are not any different and yet at the same time, I'll even go as far as to say most guys in the world, most men, the overwhelming majority of men are operating with an old playbook and they are getting stuck in their marriage and they can't understand why they're saying, Hey, I'm a good guy.
I don't cheat on you. I don't hit the kids. I don't drink too much yet. You're not satisfied. You know, my wife's not satisfied. My wife is discontent. My wife has threatened a divorce or whatever the circumstances are. And my, you know, uh, you know, my mission in, in the world has [00:07:00] been to, to, to show men that gap and what's missing for them because they, No one's ever taught them.
No one's ever said, Okay, well, this is where you need to go inside your marriage. And if you keep operating this way, this old way, it's not going to work. And this is the new paradigm of marriage. This is how to be successful in the year 2024. Whatever worked in 1958 will not work today. It's a, it's an absolute guarantee for failure.
And so we have to upgrade our system. And that's kind of what, that's what the book is really all about, all about. Yeah.
franklin: That's a really powerful way of putting it and just thinking of the game changing. Can you dig into that a little bit more? I'd love for you to kind of unpack that a little bit and help our listeners understand like what do you see when you say the game's changed?
What does that game look like today? And what are the elements that that make it a successful marriage and allow us to be showing up as a couple? Good husbands versus like the old paradigm.
quentin: [00:08:00] Yeah. So if we were going to just kind of, uh, you know, talk about it in the easiest way, the way I like to think about it is that in our father's generation and in our grandfather's generation, being a good husband was synonymous with With being a financial provider.
And as long as we were decent financial providers, and like I said, we didn't drink too much on the weekends and we didn't hit our kids and we went to church on Sunday, we, we all got an a plus for being a husband. That is not enough anymore. And a lot of guys have a hard time with this. They have a hard time with this because they're resistant to this idea.
And they say, well, that should be enough. And I'm just going to say, well, you know, we could keep operating under that paradigm. But the results are going to speak for themselves because it's not enough. And the reason it's not enough is that women. Are asking for a lot more out of marriage today than they did 50 years ago.
And rightfully so, to be honest with you, they're asking for a quality of a relationship that is more deep, that is more connected, that is more emotionally [00:09:00] driven, that is more purposeful. And if we didn't see our dads. Do that. Well, or our grandfathers do that. Well, we don't know how to do that. And so a lot of guys today in 2024, they are doing great being a financial provider, you know, they're hitting it out of the park in that domain, but they don't know how to connect on a deeper emotional level.
Their emotional intelligence is not as high as it needs to be their ability to really cement an attachment with their partner and offer their partner very important. emotional needs becomes a challenge. And so the wife is saying, Hey, I appreciate all that you do financially, but I want more from you than that.
I want to connect with you on a deeper level. I want us to have a level of intimacy. That is stronger. And a lot of guys are kind of left in the dark because they just don't know how [00:10:00] to do that. And so the merit over time with, with that ingredient missing inside of the relationship, the relationship just starts to degrade over time.
And you know, maybe somebody has an affair or both people have an affair or ends up in a divorce, or even if none of those things happen, it just ends up in a lot of misery and just being in a flat marriage. So that was a, that's kind of a long way to describe this emotional connection that is missing inside of a relationship for most men, because they just don't know how to do it.
And that's what I love teaching men how to do.
franklin: So what are some of the steps that you would So a man hears this for the first time and Just becoming aware of the idea of emotional intelligence and and being more emotionally available and connected to his wife. What would be some steps and some direction that you would give to to help him begin to develop that in his relationship?
quentin: Yeah. So when we think about growing and at the same time, as I described this, I want [00:11:00] listeners to know. That I'm going to describe it in a simple way, but it's not simple. And it takes a lot of work and it takes a concerted effort. And the reason I just want to say that is because I don't want to say, I don't want to set people up for failure to think that if you just take what I'm about to say and start applying it, then.
You're going to be off to the races. You probably won't. There's, there's a lot of work that has to get done to not only learn how to, how to have that emotional connection, but how to undo a lot of the relational experiences that we receive from our fathers. You know, it's not, it's, so it's, it's on one hand, it's learning new things.
And on another hand, it's completely breaking down. the role modeling that we received and questioning it and saying, okay, yeah, I saw my dad do that. Was that really good? I saw my dad be really stoic. Was that really good? I saw my dad be really passive. Was that a good thing? I saw my, my mom kind of walk on my dad or I saw my dad be really aggressive, which is the right way.
So there's a lot of nuance in this [00:12:00] and it gets pretty, it's like, we have to get each of us, Have to kind of go on a journey to kind of get into the weeds of this. But if I was going to just talk about it in a simple way, there's two sides of this coin. Okay. So one side of the coin is learning how to articulate your inner world, your emotional experience to your wife.
And, and also may at some point to your children, because to be a good dad, you also have to do this. So it's learning how to put language to what is going on inside of us. So if I feel scared, can I say that, can I say, I feel afraid if I feel sad, can I say, I feel sad if I feel lonely and I feel disconnected, can I actually say the words?
I feel lonely. 99 percent of guys listening to this have never said that in their entire lives. They don't use language like that because they didn't see their dads use language like that. And there's a lot of shame around using words like that. It feels like [00:13:00] there's a lot of weakness around it. I'm not a strong man if I say those kinds of things.
And as long as we have those kind of beliefs operating inside of our mind about our internal world, about our emotions, then we're never going to develop that high quality emotional connection that really is needed to sustain a great relationship. And then the other side of that coin is It's not the expression of your emotions.
It's learning how to receive emotions. So when your wife tells you what is going on for her, it's learning how to listen, not for data, but listen for emotion. So if my wife is describing something to me about her day, I'm kind of letting a lot of the facts just go right over my head. And I'm trying to really cue into, What is she really feeling?
What is she really feeling? Because then I'm going to go to a place of empathy. I'm going to go to a place of attunement. I'm going to go to a place of connecting with her at a deeper level. And if I just stay listening to the facts. There's a [00:14:00] really good chance. I'm going to go into that mode of trying to fix your problems, be a problem solver, which a lot of guys struggle with.
And then, you know, we all know that that's going to end and that's not going to end well. So I like to think about like opposite sides of the same coin. One side of the coin is learning how to deliver a message, an emotional message. And the other side of that coin is learning how to receive that message.
Does that kind of make sense, Franklin?
franklin: Yeah, no, it makes great sense. And so I'm thinking through a few things. So one, it seems to me that, You know, what I hear you saying is that our wives ultimately want a deeper version of us than just the surface level provider checking the boxes, you know, and, you know, quote, not not hitting the kids like that's such a surface, like 1.
0 level husband in my mind, and it's like, I just I want depth and I want to know who you are like in a soul level, not just at a surface level. And if we can't express emotion, then we don't get there. The other thing that I think [00:15:00] through in my own marriage is just the this idea of holding space And what I had to get over was when we hear our spouse communicating to us I think as men one thing that I believe is that it can be easy for our ego and our pride to get in the way and take what they're saying personally as it's as if it's an attack on us rather than just Communication that they need someone to sit there and hold space for and be able to receive without taking it personally Would you like so love you speak to that, but those are the things that kind of come up for me as I hear you say that.
quentin: Yeah, totally, man. Those are great examples, you know, and those are, those are, that's a perfect example of, uh, kind of illustrating what I was saying earlier about, like, we all have to go on our own journey of healing some of these old wounds, you know, some of these old traumas, you know, because when we take things personal like that, well, that's, that's, that's an indicator of something old in our past.
That's an indicator of something. That [00:16:00] is kind of unresolved that we haven't, we haven't dealt with. And those are, those are beautiful things because they, they point us into a direction of where we need to go to find that healing. But those are, that's a perfect example of, of the necessity for all of us.
That's why, you know, chapter one of black belt husband is like the most basic chapter one, white belt is self awareness. Because everything builds on self awareness. If we're not self aware, then what happens is all these things start happening inside of our nervous system and inside of our body emotionally.
We feel triggered, we're getting upset, we're getting angry, we're shutting down, but if we're not self aware, what will happen is that we will blame our partners for all that stuff going on inside of us. We will say, why are you doing this to me? Why are you talking to me this way? Why are you making me feel this way?
We're not connecting the [00:17:00] dot that it's our own thing going on inside of us. So that's like, that's where the self awareness becomes so important. And I don't know about you, Franklin, but I didn't grow up with a dad who encouraged me to be self aware. Like my dad today probably doesn't even know what those words mean.
And I think that for most guys, that's kind of the experience that they grew up in. We didn't, you know, very few of us were blessed enough to grow up with a father. Who taught his son how to be self aware and women are saying, I want to connect with you at a deeper level. And if you're not self aware, it becomes a roadblock because your ego is getting in the way or your anger is getting in the way or whatever, something's getting in the way.
And they're, they're saying, Hey, I want something richer, more, more deep, more meaningful. And that, that lack of self awareness on our part. Becomes the hurdle that becomes the obstacle that that essentially stunts two people's ability to [00:18:00] grow closer together.
franklin: Yeah, what I found is that there would be these moments where I would take something personally or, you know, ego would kind of start getting in the way.
And what ends up happening instead of it being about my wife and holding space for her, I end up unknowingly making it about me. And then it's like, Hey, this isn't about you, but you're making it about you. And it took me a while to kind of understand what that even meant so that I could just, in those moments, just take a breath and just listen, realize that sometimes what she's saying does not necessarily what she's saying is not necessarily what she means or what she feels like you said.
And in just gaining that emotional awareness and regulation to where I can just stay untriggered and stay present so that I can be a better, more supportive husband.
quentin: It's such a, it's so good, man. And I'll, I'll give you an example personally too. So my wife and I went on a walk this morning and she's struggling with some health things going on with her and she's working with some doctors and trying to figure some stuff [00:19:00] out.
And as she's talking about the things that are going on with her, in my mind, I have already come up with all the solutions. I'm like, I know what she needs to do next. I know who she needs to call next. I know where she needs to go next. I know what she needs to take next, but thank God bless, you know, I have enough self awareness at this point in my journey.
I haven't always had this. To not say anything because there's a little dialogue going on inside of my mind. I'm listening to her and I'm listening to myself at the same time. And there's like, there's like a devil and an angel and the devil's like, give her all this great advice. She doesn't know what she's doing.
She could really benefit from your help. The angel is saying, keep your mouth closed, be a great listener, empathize with her. And thankfully today, I listen to the angel and we have this great conversation, this great connection. She feels really heard. She feels really understood by me. I'm kind of holding that space for [00:20:00] her.
And it's just a, it's an example of that kind of self awareness where a lot of guys. They legitimately think that I have something to offer you. And so I want to tell you what I think, and it just starts to break down the connection. And then the wife feels frustrated and she says, you know what, forget it.
You know, next time I'm just not going to even bring this up because every time I bring it up, I get this advice and I'm not looking for advice. And then the guy's like, well, why don't you ever bring up anything to me? I want to talk to you about this stuff. And so over time, it just starts to erode. And so, you know, having that self awareness Is kind of like definitely key step number one in the black belt husband journey to develop that as a character strength so we can have great marriages because without that we can never have a great relationship.
franklin: You know, you make me think of, uh, and we were talking about this before the podcast. So I've got a herniated disc in my neck [00:21:00] right now from jujitsu. that I'm struggling with. And it's been going on for weeks now and is really beginning to, to wear on me. And the old version of Franklin, when my wife says, how are you doing?
I would have said, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm good. You know, that, that, that it would have just been very surface level, my responses, but I've, I've found that I've gained through, you know, reading book like this and doing work. I've let her know, you know, I'm, I'm pretty scared right now. Like, I'm, I'm afraid that the things that I enjoy doing physically are not going to be available to me.
I'm scared of surgery potentially. I'm, I mean, I'm hurting right now. You know, I feel kind of alone. I feel kind of depressed, like, but I have felt that or found that when I, when I share how I'm actually feeling and not just going surface level saying I'm fine or I'm good, I'm good. Well, you know, she wants to know how I'm doing internally, not just externally.
And I think so, to me, that [00:22:00] comes up as a, as a recent example for me of, so what does it look like to really, to really be emotionally available, you know, and, and share where we're at. And, and to me, that was a, just a way of illustrating that.
quentin: That's a good, it's a great example. And I bet that your wife really appreciated you saying that.
I bet she felt closer to you. I bet she felt like she got to know you a little bit better just in this little moment of time. And a lot of guys would struggle with saying that because there's a fear that if I tell my wife that I have these feelings or experiences, then my wife is going to think less of me.
She's going to think that, you know, I'm less manly or I'm less capable or, you know, it's going to send her off the cliff. And I can honestly, this is honest to God truth. I can honestly tell you after working with thousands of people, thousands of lives. In an office, I've never heard a wife say that she [00:23:00] wishes that her husband didn't open up.
That's profound. Yeah. Thousands. Thousands. And I can honestly tell you the truth on the other side that I've heard thousands beg their husbands to be more open and to be more vulnerable.
franklin: Why do you think it is so hard for us men to get there? Is it just, is it pride or fear or just we weren't trained or we're just Is it a mix of all those things come together?
quentin: I do think it's a mix of all those things. You know, I grew up with a father who he prided himself and being tough and strong and disciplined, and he was a military guy and there was, there was no room for emotion and, uh, you know, he softened a lot in his older age, but that none of that matters because my, my little brain was formed, you know, When I was young with him, and it was just, you know, it was, it was an environment of like, what is the old [00:24:00] saying?
You know, as little kid, you cry. And then, you know, his classic response was, I'll give you something to cry about, you know, it's like that. So that's the environment that I grew up in. And so for me to, to be vulnerable, Was very scary, you know, very scary, because I thought that it was certainly a sign of weakness.
It was certainly a sign that you weren't really a man. If you did that, that maybe people would, you know, it was like a shameful experience. And a lot of guys carry that. It's the deep shame that if I'm vulnerable. You're going to judge me as being less of a man. And so I'm going to just, I'm going to button all that stuff up.
I'm not going to disclose any of that stuff. I'm going to be strong. I'm going to be stoic. I'm not going to be revealing of who I am. And it's a way to protect ourselves. It's a way to feel safe. You know, because as long as I'm not vulnerable, you're never going to be able to judge me [00:25:00] and I don't want you to judge me.
And so I'm never going to give you anything to judge. So I'm going to stay strong. I'm going to stay funny. I'm going to stay intelligent, stoic, unemotional, all those things, and you're never going to get to know me at a deep level. And then therefore you can never reject me. You can never shame me. You can never judge me.
franklin: And shame is such a powerful emotion that I think we just naturally will, will do so much to not experience, you know, that gives me some empathy for just men in general, knowing what we're up against when it's like, that's the emotion you have to overcome. in order to get past this, you know, you have to get past that, that initial trigger response of, of shame that, you know, for a lot of my life and a lot of, you know, men, I think we would just go, you know what, it just is better to stay over here and not grow.
Than it is to bump up against this, this thing over here called shame. That's really going to trigger me and challenge me emotionally.
quentin: Yeah. And it's, it's the unfortunate part. And [00:26:00] this was my experience too, in my first marriage is that, that, that shame was really responsible for destroying my life. And, you know, the fear of being vulnerable of opening up now I'm a long way on the other side of it.
So I can look back and see, you know, the many, you know, blessings and the transformation that it caused, but at the time. Dude, it was brutal. It was brutal. And so the shame is a, is a big one, you know, and it's like, it's very biblical too, in the sense that, you know, Adam and Eve, Eve were in the garden and, you know, after, you know, sin kind of set on the scene of them in the garden, you know, God is like looking for them in the garden.
He's like, where are you? And they're hiding from God. And God says, well, why are you hiding from me? You know, and you know, they were, and it says that they from You know, naked and unashamed to hiding from God and clothing themselves. So it's like shame is like in, it's in the onset [00:27:00] of like our experience.
And I think that, you know, men. If I could just encourage men in any way, it's like, man, I just, I want you to see the peril more than anything. I want to illuminate the peril that the shame, if shame keeps you from being open and vulnerable. It is going to cost you something very significant. It might not cost you your marriage, your marriage might stay intact.
I will promise you one thing, you will not have a good marriage, but you know, staying married is not a high bar of success. So you could stay married even if you don't want to do it for the sake of your marriage. Your kids, your, your relationship with your children will be impacted. You'll never be able to develop a certain depth of relationship with your children.
You'll have a very strong bond with your kids as they're really young. And as your kids approach 10, 11, 12 preteen, that [00:28:00] bond will start to break down between you and your kids and less. You have an ability to overcome that shame and to be vulnerable and to be a real human and to have a real connection with your kids.
And it's like, man, that breaks my heart to think about that for myself. Cause there, you know, it's like, I love my kids. I have two boys. I love my kids so much that it's always a challenge for me too. So like I have an 11 year old now and I have to be so cognizant of, you know, as he gets into those preteen ages, I'm going to role model for him like, Hey, I'm just a human.
I have my own feelings. When this happens, I feel sad when this happens, I feel scared. Do you feel scared? He's like, yeah, I feel scared. Okay, great. Now we're bonding. We're bonding on an emotional level. I'm teaching him that it's okay to talk about his feelings because I'm showing him that I do it myself.
And then we, we developed this, like this bond with each other at a deep emotional level. So for the [00:29:00] guys listening to this, you know, if your marriage is struggling and maybe that doesn't feel like a great motivator to do it, it's like, do it for your kids. Because. I know you care about your
franklin: kids. That puts a whole different light on it, you know, and to understand it.
One is a skill because we're not born with this ability, right? So no different than any other skill we develop. This is just one, one of those, but to take it beyond just our marriage and realize that this is a skill that translates. directly to our relationships with our children. That, to me, ups the ante a bit and gives, gives even more reason why men have to begin to learn how to be emotionally aware and intelligent, not just so that they can have a thriving, passionate marriage that they actually want to be in, but so that they're able to model that for their children and maintain that.
a thriving relationship with their children as they grow older. Because that, that idea of, of, if you don't do this, then [00:30:00] you will begin to see that relationship break down. That is terrifying to me.
quentin: Yeah, well, you know, just like what I said in the very beginning of our conversation, Franklin, where the game has changed.
It's also, the game has also changed between Parents and children. And for, for similar reasons, you know, the bar has been set higher kids today in their twenties, their thirties, they want something deeper from their parents. They don't just want the inheritance. You know, they want to know their parents.
They want to know who are you? What are you about? I want to get to know you at a deeper level. I want to connect with you. And a lot of parents from those prior generations are just totally stunted. And so that parent child relationship starts to degrade. And it's like, well, why don't you guys come over for the Christmas holiday to be on?
I mean, I can tell you this, but to be honest, it's not enjoyable. And so it's so sad because you see these parents, these like, you know, parents or grandparents go into this later kind of [00:31:00] sunset years of their life. And it's not like their kids have disowned him, but their kids don't really want to spend deep, rich, meaningful time with them because the parents don't know how to connect.
They don't know how to relate. And it's like, well, why don't you bring the grandkids over more? It's like, well, you know, like maybe next time. And that breaks my heart. That breaks my heart. You know, that's just such a sad thing to watch that. And it's preventable.
franklin: Is it because the dynamic, even though the, the kids get older and become adults themselves, And then have their own Children.
But is it because that dynamics still maintains that young child dynamic? If I'm saying that right versus developing beyond that?
quentin: Well, I think what happens is those kids, you know, they grow up and you know, they're adults, you know, young adults in 2024 and they have these rich relationships with their friends.
It's like they've tasted the chocolate ice cream. Once you taste the chocolate ice cream, the popsicle doesn't taste good [00:32:00] anymore. And they're like, I just want that chocolate ice cream. So they go to mom and dad and they're like, Hey, mom and dad, you got some of that chocolate ice cream. And the mom and dad are like, I got a popsicle because mom and dad have not evolved.
Mom and dad haven't grown up. Mom and dad are still in that old paradigm. And so then the relationship. doesn't have that necessary magic sauce to make it deeply connected. Now there, there's still a relationship. Yeah. You know, we come over for Thanksgiving and stuff, but it's not the kind of relationship that any of us would really want with our kids.
We want something special. You know, I want to have the kind of relationship with my kids where, you know, I'm, you know, I'm part of their life and they're part of my life. It would break my heart to think that, that our relationship would devolve because there wasn't an ability to connect at a more rich and meaningful level.
And so this is the appeal, you know, this is the, the siren [00:33:00] call for, for all the guys to say, guys, we got to get better at this. For our children's sake, for our marriage sake, for our community sake, you know, it's like I go to, I go to this church and, you know, in our, I'll just give this as another example.
It's like in our church right now, the lead pastor left and they're trying to find a new pastor to take his place. And I can see it so clearly even inside the church that the elders inside of our church do not know how to connect at this level. And the whole church is craving something more meaningful and something more rich to help explain how everybody is feeling because our lead pastor left.
And the elders are, they're just stuck. They're stuck. And they're, they're hanging on to these old. Kind of antiquated paradigms to kind of explain what's going on. And the people inside the church, they're like, give us more, give us something more, give us something richer, give us something deeper, give us something [00:34:00] more connected.
And they don't know how to do it. And so it's just, it's happening inside of our church right now. And it's a place where, you know, I've, I'm finding myself kind of stepping into this kind of like leadership role, trying to help these guys see. what the church congregation is needing and help them meet their needs.
But if I wasn't there able to illuminate that for them, they would, they wouldn't be able to do it. And there would just be a big fallout. So it's just another example. And when we see, we'll see these examples everywhere. Once we start noticing the gap of what is really necessary to have great relationships and what most people do.
There's a really big gap there.
franklin: So it's not just something that impacts our marriages and our family and our children, and then even our, our grandkids one day and whether or not we have a relationship with them, but then it, it works itself into our churches and our communities and our places of work and business and in our professional relationships.
[00:35:00] Like this is something that. Is not just a husband is I'm seeing this conversation unfold. This isn't just a man, woman, husband, wife issue. This is an issue that is undermining every area of life that most men would call significant.
quentin: Dude, that's it bro. 100%. And I'm not going to plug my own book because that's super annoying, but I talk a lot about this in this book and I'll give you a great example.
Okay. Cause I coach a lot of business owners and leaders on these principles. It's like to be a great leader, you have to be highly skilled at what we're talking about right now. And I'll tell you exactly why. Okay. Because in 2024 and you're a business owner. So I think you'll appreciate this is as good as anybody in 2024.
It is very difficult to find good talent. It's very difficult to get people to want to work, to get people to stick around to work. And what [00:36:00] great companies know that average companies don't is that how you make somebody feel inside the workplace Is going to be the magic sauce on your employee retention.
And it's the same thing as the marriage because a lot of leaders Think wrongly that if I just pay this person More money than the other person down the street that i'm going to be able to retain top talent and it is not true There is so much evidence to show that that is not true And it sounds crazy It doesn't sound crazy to me anymore, but maybe for some people listening to this.
It sounds crazy People don't work for money You People work for how you make them feel. And so to your point, Franklin, yes, this applies everywhere, everywhere. That's meaningful in our workplace, in our relationships with people above us, people below us, our friendships, our spiritual [00:37:00] communities.
Parenting because you know, the game has changed everywhere. It's not just inside of our marriage. I mean, I happen to write black belt husband specifically in the context of marriage, but it's, it doesn't stop there. It's inside of our workplace. And if we want to, you know, I was talking to a client the other day who works for Hewlett Packard and we're, we're talking about his career progression and how he wants to kind of go to the next level, even inside of his career.
And I was explaining something to him. I said, Hey, listen, For you to go to the next level inside your career, it has nothing to do with your technical abilities anymore. It's all about your people skills. It's all about your ability to motivate people, connect with people, help people feel heard, help people feel safe, help people feel valued.
Those are the skills that are going to take you to the next level inside your career. And oh, by the way, Paul, his name's Paul, by the way, Paul, these are the same problems [00:38:00] that are keeping you from a great marriage. It's the same thing because your wife doesn't feel important to you because not because she's not important because you haven't learned the skills on how to communicate that to other people.
And that's also going to be the obstacle for your career because at this point in the game for him and for people that are performing at a high level, it's all about people.
franklin: So men that are listening to this, think if there was like this one master skill that if you developed it, it would allow you to make more money.
In your career and profession, it would allow you to have a more passionate, intimate and connected marriage. It would create deeper relationships with your children. It would create better relationships. with the men that you surround yourself with, it would create a better relationship with you and your, your different community.
And whether it's community, church, like this one thing literally would impact nearly every single area of our life. And I would guess too, that when we do all those things that [00:39:00] we would also get healthier physically, we'd probably be healthier mentally and spiritually, right? So this one skill is we're talking through it has got the ability to you.
impact every single area of our life in a positive way. If we, if we did the work necessary and required to begin to build that skill and it's like building a muscle, right? Over time, it's going to get easier. It's going to get stronger. You're going to get better. But you've got to start and this is like the master skill to all of it.
quentin: Yeah. And you're gonna, you're gonna start to experience the benefits of it too. Not just in the workplace, but in your relationship. See, sometimes we talk about this as if this is something that we do for our wives or that we do for our employees. It's like, no, we do it for, I mean, this is very selfish.
This is very self serving. We do it for ourselves because it makes us feel good. Every single guy listening to this, regardless of, Whether or not you can admit this, you [00:40:00] also want to have a deep, meaningful and rich connection with another human. We all do. It is, it is ingrained into our DNA. There's no getting out of this.
We are pack animals to the core. And so, it's not just something that we do to save our marriage. It's something that we do to save ourselves. Because without this, we are going to struggle. And the evidence is in the struggle, porn addiction, alcoholism, anxiety, depression, burnout. It's like, well, yeah, of course, of course, all those symptoms are there because guys are massively lonely, filled with shame and not connected at all.
And so there's this like epidemic of guys struggling with all sorts of mental health things. And the solution. is in your ability to connect with other humans at a deeper level. But it's, again, it's not your fault because you grew up with a dad who didn't show you how to do that. [00:41:00] And that's why, you know, for, for many of us, our dads were, were drinkers or workaholics.
You know, there was some addiction happening there because they had to cope too from a lack of connection. But now that you know, now that you heard this guy, Quentin and this guy, Franklin tell you that this is. a thing. Now the ball's in your court. Now the responsibility is up to you to take the knowledge, to take the information and go pursue it and say, okay, I need to get better at this because there is way too much at stake in my life and in the lives of everyone that I care about for me not to take this really serious.
franklin: And that's such a good point too. It's like, what's the, you know, we think about the cost of, of being vulnerable and, and we think about the idea of being weak or perceived as being weak. The thing that men go to outside of that, like you said, you know, porn, alcohol, drugs, all those things, all the things that actually do make us weak.
And so it's like, we, we run to those things, but just [00:42:00] realizing what's, what is it going to cost you if you don't learn this skill? And if you don't take the time to develop it, is it going to cost you your marriage or your relationship with your children, cost you the success that you want in your business, cost you the friendships that are so important to us living like good, healthy lives as men.
I mean, I mean, the cost of not doing it. is just catastrophic. And then you look around and you see the fallout all over the place.
quentin: Yeah. You know, and this, you know, I guess at this point in my life too is like, I just, I have such a different perspective on it where, you know, when people are vulnerable with, when other men are vulnerable with me, I'm always so impressed.
I'm like, damn, that is awesome. You know, I'm always impressed. It earns my deepest respect and admiration for men who can take a risk like that. And to be vulnerable. So I'm saying that because it's flipping this idea on its head that somehow you're weak when the opposite is [00:43:00] true. When the op, at least for me, you know, and I, and I think for, for anybody that you could honestly say, that's a good man that I would want in my life.
That person is never, ever, ever going to think that you're weak for being expressive of your emotions. It's the opposite. I'm going to think that you're weak because you can't, because that's the most true thing. It's, it's the ultimate sign of weakness is the inability to be open and vulnerable, not to be vulnerable.
You know, so it's kind of like we have to flip that thing on its head and we have to say, gosh, you know, like it doesn't make you strong at all to be closed off. Let me give you, can I give you an analogy? Please. Okay. So I teach the lunch class at my Jiu Jitsu school every Thursday and you know, once a month or a couple of times a month, there's somebody who walks in the door during our lunch class And they're interested in jujitsu.
And I say the same thing to that person. I say the same thing every time I tell that person, the bravest [00:44:00] thing to do is to walk through that front door. The guy who is super skilled at jujitsu. I mean, we all had to walk through the front door at some point, but the real kudos, the real respect is that person who was brave enough to walk through that front door, come into a class, not know anything and admit.
I'm a beginner. I have no idea what I'm doing. And will you help me? And whenever somebody comes in to our school and they're coming into the school for the first time, I always go out of my way to acknowledge them to say, dude, do you know how brave you are? Do you know how many people walk past this place?
Wanting to come in, you know, telling themselves for the last month, I'm going to walk in, I'm going to walk in, this is going to be the day. And they just walk right on by because they're not brave enough. And so to walk into that front door is the ultimate act of bravery. [00:45:00] And the same thing is applied to somebody listening to our conversation right now, who might say, you know what, I've never done this before.
That's okay. But you got to start somewhere. And if you start somewhere, you're going to get a giant high five from men who have maybe gone before you just a little bit further. And they're going to honor that incredible act of bravery for acknowledging and admitting that this is somewhere where you're starting.
Nobody's going to judge you for I mean, could you imagine if we judge that guy for coming into the jujitsu school and we say, Oh, well, you don't know how to fight. You don't belong here. That would be crazy, right? We want to lift that person up and welcome them and say, man, so glad you're here. You're welcome here.
You're going to be safe here. And it's the same thing when it, when we talk about, um, our need to, you know, go to these deep places, look at our family of origin, develop a greater level of relational intelligence, emotional intelligence, be, you know, overcome the fear that [00:46:00] halts us from being vulnerable.
You're going to get, you're just going to get some massive high fives by people that you want in your camp anyway.
franklin: And the thing that I've seen is spent and let's take it away from the, you know, husband, wife scenario, but just with friends, right? It's real easy to be in your friend groups and just not get.
to any depth of, of really what's going on in our lives. You know, we talk about, you know, how are things going? Oh, things are busy, work, kids, you know, just the normal, the normal banter. But what I found, cause I've had an opportunity to connect with some, some men just like out, you know, just hanging out with, with other men lately.
And when one man opens up, what it does is it creates a safe space for the other men to do the same. And what I've witnessed is that once that safe space is open, every single man steps into that and shares the challenges and the struggles and the, the fears and difficulties they're going through, too.
They're not posturing in that [00:47:00] space that they're, they're opening up. And I think that there's a deep desire in men, even if they don't recognize it, to do that. But we're just, we're waiting for someone to create that space. And so. It's also, if you're, if you consider yourself a leader, you have to be willing to step out and be that first man so that you create that safe space for the next man to come behind you and do the same.
quentin: I love that. Uh, leaders go first and it's like, if not you, then who, somebody's got to do it. Somebody's got to tell us that it's okay.
franklin: And it might just be you stepping out there and realizing that it's probably a lot worse in your mind than it is in reality. And it's not that bad. It's not, it's not that bad.
Yeah. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to talk about your new book. And I would love to hit on that for a minute as we kind of come to the end of our time together. Would you mind kind of taking us through just a little bit of, uh, of go next level and kind of your, your [00:48:00] intent behind that and how it could.
Benefit the men that would be listening to this show
quentin: Yeah, okay. So I just launched go next levels two weeks ago launched It was uh, it got number one on amazon for business education So the subtitle is nine questions. You need to answer to get absolute clarity On what matters most and fulfill everything you want in life and business.
So I wrote go next level because I've had a lot of clients over the years who feel stuck and they either feel stuck professionally or personally, they just feel stuck in some place in their life. And so what I wanted to do is I wanted to write a book that said, Hey, if you feel stuck, follow this guide, follow this blueprint, go through the process inside the book.
To get unstuck. And the cool thing about go next level is that you can apply it to your business life. You can apply it to your relationship life. You can apply it to [00:49:00] being a parent. You can apply it to your physical health journey. You can apply it to any place in your life. So it's not just a relationship book.
It's a book that can really touch anybody at any place in their life. If they just feel stuck somewhere and they know. I don't like being stuck. I want to, I want to go to the next level. I'm just not sure how to get there. That's what this book is all about.
franklin: Awesome. Awesome. Well, appreciate you sharing that.
And so if, uh, if you're listening to this, go check out Quentin's book, go next level. You can find it on the Amazon and. He's got a website, QuintonHaffner. com, I believe.
quentin: Yeah, that's it. QuintonHaffner. com. Yeah.
franklin: Okay. Cool. Quinton, man, as we, uh, wrap up here, what's one last, uh, bit of advice that you would give men as we, uh, as we bring this to a close and, and sign off here in just a second?
quentin: You know, I feel like we've laid it on pretty thick. And I'm going to say not even advice. I'm just going to just say encouragement. You know, I just want guys to know that they're not alone. If you're struggling with anything that, you know, Franklin and [00:50:00] I have talked about today, I want you to know that I am the chief strugglers of all of those things.
And I'm sure Franklin would admit the same for himself. And so you're not alone. Just see the need. If you could see the need. You're going to find the path on how to figure it out, but I hope that you can see the need and that you're just not alone.
franklin: None of us have all this figured out, but I think the difference is a willingness to, to try to figure it out each day a little bit more, you know, and just not quit.
quentin: That's
franklin: it.
quentin: That's it. That's all we could ask of anybody, ourselves included. Just don't quit.
franklin: Quentin, this is, uh, this has been fun. Yeah, man, I really appreciate your time. If someone resonated and connected with you today, where could they reach out and find you and track some of some of your, your work down?
quentin: You know, best way is just go to my website, go to quentinafter. com. If you want to get in touch or, you know, see what I'm doing, I post everything there. So. Thank you.
franklin: [00:51:00] Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today. This is really fun. And I know it's going to, it's going to serve some men in a really powerful way and, um, just appreciate your time.
Thanks, sir.
quentin: Yeah. Appreciate you too, Franklin. Thank you.
franklin: If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the podcast, give us a rating and review and share this episode with one man, you know, needs to hear this message. We want to encourage as many men as possible to show up as the strong leaders. Loving husbands and intentional fathers their family deserves.
And until next time be the man the world needs.